[SSassen]

Okay, I'm still hard at work with the LTspice simulator and getting better at it every day Due to the fact that my semi-discrete driver-stage of my previous design suffered from a excessive power-drain I decided to try the readily available TDA8939 and work in some of the things I learned this week as well.

The first design I tried (why start easy no?) is a full-bridge UcD with some extra bits thrown in. So why no more SODFA? Well, I learned a few things from Beobachters designs posted here and drew my own conclusions. One of the problems with UcD is that it is hard to precisely control the carrier frequency. It is basically controlled by the delay between the in- and output. Below is the principle schematic for a UcD amplifier courtesy of the talented Bruno Putzeys.

Bruno's UcD concept
[Bild: 11696.gif]

Obviously in the Hypex UcD modules the comparator and MOSFET drivers are exactly matched so that the carrier freqeuncy can be controlled. This however is a balancing act which is hard to follow for the DIY-er, especially if you want to use ICs instead of discrete components. There's a way around this though, as you can simply include a R/C network with the UcD concept and connect that to the comparator's other input. Now you have control over the carrier frequency. Unfortunately doing it that way will shift the hysterisis of the comparator and hence introduce non-linear distortion, so we are faced with a whole new problem.

UcD with R/C network
[Bild: 11697.gif]

Fortunately that is a problem that can easily be tackled by using a 2nd comparator, see below, and put the R/C network at its input. Hence there's no shift in hysterisis and the carrier frequency can be controlled exactly.

Improved UcD concept
[Bild: 11698.gif]

The big advantage obviously is that you can use fast opamps and comparators that are readily available, such as the LT1016 used in the above pictured UcD design without having to exactly match propagation delay in a design to reach a certain target carrier frequency. It can now be simply controlled by adding a second (ultra-fast if you like) comparator with a simple R/C network.

The half-bridge and full-bridge design using the TDA8939 both use this R/C network as the TDA itself is a power-comparator and I thus did not need to add another component, I just needed to insert the R/C network. Below you'll find a screenshot of the full-bridge TDA8939 using this principe, which, surprise! surprise! doesn't seem to work fully yet. I'll post the ASC, THD and efficiency report in a separate post, lets first look at the 2nd design.

tda8939_ucd_bridged_001
[Bild: 11701.gif]

The 2nd design is the same concept, but I just dropped the full-bridge and wired the amplifier as a half bridge. Only one channel is connected and plotted, although two channels are driven in the schematic. That isn't important though, what counts is that the idea works, you just need to duplicate the circuit around the LT1016 to build a stereo amp. What it shows is though that a TDA8939 is a viable candidate for a half-bridge UcD amplifier as shown below.

tda8939_ucd_002
[Bild: 11702.gif]

Carrier-frequency is a bit on the low side but that can all be adjusted with the R/C network that is visible at both the normal and inverted comparator output. What I've shown here however, and what Beobachter failed to do, that complex designs with high-speed components are possible, it just takes a bit of effort and cleverness.

As always I'm looking forward to all of your replies!

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com

[SSassen]

tda8939_ucd_bridged_001 ASC

Version 4
SHEET 1 1408 684
WIRE -592 560 -592 240
WIRE -560 240 -592 240
WIRE -496 400 -496 304
WIRE -496 560 -496 480
WIRE -480 304 -496 304
WIRE -384 304 -400 304
WIRE -384 320 -384 304
WIRE -384 560 -384 400
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WIRE -352 240 -352 -224
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WIRE -352 304 -384 304
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WIRE -272 288 -352 288
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WIRE -240 224 -240 160
WIRE -240 432 -240 320
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SYMATTR Value SINE(0 1 10K)
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SYMATTR InstName R1
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SYMBOL cap 736 224 R0
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SYMBOL voltage 1248 -32 R180
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SYMBOL voltage 1344 -144 R0
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SYMATTR Value 3p3
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WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 0
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SYMATTR InstName C17
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TEXT 944 56 Left 0 !.tran 0 500u 1u steady uic
TEXT 944 88 Left 0 !.four 10kHz 10 V(OUT+)
TEXT 944 120 Left 0 !.inc powcalc.sub
TEXT 944 152 Left 0 !.inc tda8939.mod

Sander.

[SSassen]

tda8939_ucd_002 ASC

Version 4
SHEET 1 1408 780
WIRE -592 560 -592 240
WIRE -560 240 -592 240
WIRE -496 400 -496 304
WIRE -496 560 -496 480
WIRE -480 304 -496 304
WIRE -384 304 -400 304
WIRE -384 320 -384 304
WIRE -384 560 -384 400
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WIRE -352 240 -352 -128
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WIRE -352 304 -352 288
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WIRE -272 288 -352 288
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WIRE -240 224 -240 160
WIRE -240 432 -240 320
WIRE -240 560 -240 432
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WIRE -224 432 -224 320
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WIRE -160 -128 -160 -160
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WIRE -160 416 -160 288
WIRE -48 -160 -160 -160
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WIRE -48 304 -48 240
WIRE -48 416 -80 416
WIRE -48 560 -48 480
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WIRE 16 512 16 176
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WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0
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SYMATTR Value 220p
SYMBOL cap 640 624 R90
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TEXT 944 56 Left 0 !.tran 0 500u 1u steady uic
TEXT 944 88 Left 0 !.four 10kHz 10 V(OUT+)
TEXT 944 120 Left 0 !.inc powcalc.sub
TEXT 944 152 Left 0 !.inc tda8939.mod

Sander.

[SSassen]

tda8939_ucd_002 THD

Per .tran options, skipping operating point for transient analysis.
Changing Tseed to 1e-010
Changing Tseed to 1e-012
Heightened Def Con from 6.39966e-008 to 6.79966e-008
Heightened Def Con from 0.0005 to 0.0005
Fourier components of V(output)
DC component:0.0325819

Harmonic Frequency Fourier Normalized Phase Normalized
Number [Hz] Component Component [degree] Phase [deg]
1 1.000e+04 1.701e+01 1.000e+00 -98.82° 0.00°
2 2.000e+04 6.110e-02 3.593e-03 28.51° 127.33°
3 3.000e+04 1.269e-01 7.460e-03 9.21° 108.03°
4 4.000e+04 2.339e-02 1.375e-03 -176.27° -77.46°
5 5.000e+04 1.633e-01 9.602e-03 -177.25° -78.43°
6 6.000e+04 6.946e-02 4.084e-03 -120.57° -21.75°
7 7.000e+04 8.482e-02 4.987e-03 2.85° 101.67°
8 8.000e+04 4.724e-02 2.778e-03 63.41° 162.22°
9 9.000e+04 8.798e-02 5.173e-03 90.36° 189.18°
10 1.000e+05 1.559e-01 9.165e-03 -91.06° 7.76°
Total Harmonic Distortion: 1.796320%


Date: Fri Nov 25 13:42:24 2005
Total elapsed time: 33.875 seconds.

tnom = 27
temp = 27
method = modified trap
totiter = 238039
traniter = 238039
tranpoints = 68687
accept = 51297
rejected = 17390
trancuriters = 0
matrix size = 161
fillins = 106
solver = Normal

tda8939_ucd_002 Efficiency report

--- Efficiency Report ---

Efficiency: 44.1% <- see comment below!

Input: 73.9W @ 2.5V
Output: 32.6W @ -1.59V

Ref. Irms Ipeak Dissipation
C1 0mA 0mA 0mW
C10 114mA 2936mA 0mW
C11 114mA 2935mA 0mW
C12 114mA 2936mA 0mW
C13 0mA 0mA 0mW
C14 0mA 1mA 0mW
C15 0mA 1mA 0mW
C2 0mA 0mA 0mW
C3 0mA 0mA 0mW
C4 0mA 0mA 0mW
C5 578mA 1370mA 0mW
C6 578mA 1374mA 0mW
C7 214mA 333mA 0mW
C8 213mA 332mA 0mW
C9 114mA 2935mA 0mW
L1 2216mA 3596mA 5mW
L2 2210mA 3594mA 5mW
R1 214mA 333mA 1004mW
R10 3mA 5mA 2mW
R11 0mA 0mA 0µW
R12 0mA 0mA 49µW
R13 213mA 332mA 1001mW
R16 0mA 1mA 0µW
R17 0mA 1mA 0µW
R2 229mA 5869mA 523mW
R3 229mA 5872mA 524mW
R4 2015mA 2935mA 32477mW
R8 3mA 4mA 48mW
R9 0mA 0mA 234µW
U1 2224mA 9034mA 5616mW
U3 25mA 25mA 141mW
U4 6mA 6mA -0mW

Comment: keep in mind that both channels are driven, hence efficiency is double the value listed as the power dissipated in the 2nd 8-ohm load is not included, hence efficiency is 88%

Sander.

[SSassen]

tda8939_ucd_bridged_001 THD

WARNING: Less than two connections to node N010. This node is used by R:U1:6.
WARNING: Less than two connections to node 2.5. This node is used by V3.
Per .tran options, skipping operating point for transient analysis.
Changing Tseed to 1.996e-010
Changing Tseed to 1.996e-012
Fourier components of V(out+)
DC component:0.0351116

Harmonic Frequency Fourier Normalized Phase Normalized
Number [Hz] Component Component [degree] Phase [deg]
1 1.000e+04 3.464e+01 1.000e+00 158.79° 0.00°
2 2.000e+04 5.615e-02 1.621e-03 50.30° -108.49°
3 3.000e+04 7.296e+00 2.106e-01 125.46° -33.33°
4 4.000e+04 3.202e-02 9.244e-04 31.50° -127.29°
5 5.000e+04 2.514e+00 7.257e-02 115.94° -42.85°
6 6.000e+04 1.984e-02 5.726e-04 30.53° -128.26°
7 7.000e+04 1.145e+00 3.306e-02 117.20° -41.58°
8 8.000e+04 1.419e-02 4.095e-04 33.76° -125.03°
9 9.000e+04 6.139e-01 1.772e-02 123.06° -35.73°
10 1.000e+05 1.001e-02 2.890e-04 37.33° -121.46°
Total Harmonic Distortion: 22.589090%


Date: Fri Nov 25 15:57:31 2005
Total elapsed time: 4.265 seconds.

tnom = 27
temp = 27
method = modified trap
totiter = 23926
traniter = 23926
tranpoints = 10164
accept = 6768
rejected = 3394
trancuriters = 0
matrix size = 156
fillins = 91
solver = Normal

tda8939_ucd_bridged_001 Efficiency report

--- Efficiency Report ---

Efficiency: 92.1%

Input: 343W @ 2.5V
Output: 315W @ -5.95V

Ref. Irms Ipeak Dissipation
C1 0mA 0mA 0mW
C10 27mA 2903mA 0mW
C11 0mA 0mA 0mW
C12 0mA 0mA 0mW
C13 0mA 0mA 0mW
C14 0mA 1mA 0mW
C15 0mA 1mA 0mW
C16 27mA 2903mA 0mW
C17 27mA 2903mA 0mW
C2 0mA 0mA 0mW
C3 0mA 0mA 0mW
C4 0mA 0mA 0mW
C5 924mA 2322mA 0mW
C6 924mA 2324mA 0mW
C7 370mA 760mA 0mW
C8 370mA 761mA 0mW
C9 27mA 2903mA 0mW
L1 6526mA 7391mA 43mW
L2 6526mA 7393mA 43mW
R1 370mA 760mA 3007mW
R10 0mA 0mA 10µW
R11 0mA 0mA 1µW
R12 0mA 0mA 49µW
R13 370mA 761mA 3006mW
R16 0mA 1mA 0µW
R17 0mA 1mA 0µW
R2 53mA 5805mA 29mW
R3 53mA 5805mA 29mW
R4 1mA 1mA 14mW
R5 1mA 1mA 13mW
R6 1mA 1mA 297µW
R7 1mA 1mA 274µW
R8 0mA 0mA 209µW
R9 0mA 0mA 1µW
U1 6526mA 12666mA 20808mW
U2 4mA 4mA 39mW
U3 25mA 25mA 141mW
U4 6mA 6mA -0mW

Sander.

[Rumgucker]

Ey Alter! Das sieht ja gut aus!

Guck auch mal in den Auto-Krams. Ich hab auch was geschafft. Ich hab was Ultimatives erfunden, was alles andere "Ultimative" weit in den Schatten stellt.



Ein sauber gelungener Verstärker und eine Erfindung. Das ist ein guter Schnitt.

Okok... für morgen steck ich unser Ziel etwas höher.

Aber für heute gehts ok. Rumgucker ist zufrieden mit Euch (und sich selbst).

[SSassen]

You invented bare wire with a gain greater than 1? Do tell!

Sander.

[Rumgucker]

Erst wenn Du mir erklärst, wie Du einen Wirkungsgrad von unter 0% hinbekommen hattest

[Rumgucker]

Hab diesen Thread mal aus dem Sodfa-Pool gerettet

[Rumgucker]

SSassen? Ist das die Datei aus #2, die nicht läuft?

[SSassen]

The full-bridge doesn't work properly, the half-bridge works just fine, needs some fine tuning still, but it does work. And yes, that's the asc data in that post, just look at the bold text on top of it, that describes exactly what you're looking at.

Cheers,

Sander.

[SSassen]

Zitat:SSassen? Ist das die Datei aus #2, die nicht läuft?

Ja, yes, ja!

Sander.

[Rumgucker]

Ok. Ich mach nur noch schnell Beobachter zur Schnecke und dann zieh ich mir die Sache rein, ok?

[SSassen]

Rummy, you got a mean streak

Sander.

[Rumgucker]

Ich brauch keine netten Wörter, Sander "Dankeschön" aber trotzdem...

Was ich aber dringend brauch, sind fiese böse englische/holländische/französische/belgische Schimpfwörter

[SSassen]

Lollypop = cute little girl

Cheers,

Sander.

[Rumgucker]

Arghhhh....

Ich brauch die bösen, schlimmen Worte natürlich per IM . Jetzt ist dieses wunderschöne Wort unnutzbar . Wie soll ich jetzt noch unsere Sorgen-User damit überraschen? Die wissen doch nun auch, was das bedeutet.

Ach Sander... so wird das nie was....

---

Ich seh gerade, daß Sander seinen vorigen Beitrag abgeändert hat. Das ist klug. Denn ich hab mir das böse Wort natürlich rauskopiert und die anderen bestimmt nicht. Nun warte ich nur, bis alle es vergessen haben und dann .... und dann... "tatahhhh"

[Rumgucker]

@Sander

Ich hatte Dir per IM mitgeteilt, daß in dem TDA8939-UcD der R10 viel zu niederohmig ausgeführt war. So konnte sich keine Rückkopplung ergeben. Nachdem ich R10 von 220 Ohm auf 220 kOhm vergrößert hatte, arbeitete der UcD grundsätzlich.

Daraufhin hast Du mir diesen Link genannt und ich soll noch mal testen.

Aber ich versteh nicht, was ich da jetzt noch testen soll. Wenn der UcD grundsätzlich läuft, ist doch alles ok. Das "optimizing" ist Dein Job.

[SSassen]

The return of the [D]Jedi[/D] TDA!

Have a look at the below schematic which I've been simulating this afternoon. The TDA impresses by offering 150-watts in 8-ohm with just 0.05% THD, slightly over 300-watts in 4-ohm with 0.9% THD. So I think it is safe to say that the TDA is back with a vengeance!



Any comments/hints/tips/suggestions are most welcome!

Regards,

Sander.

[Rumgucker]

Herzlichen Glückwunsch !!!!!!!

By the way: das TDA-Modell ist von mir . Zeigs bloß nicht dem Analog-Klugscheißer aus dem anderen Forum.

Oder besser noch: zeigs ihm! Aber zeigs ihm erst, wenn Dein Amp auch in der Praxis funktioniert